INTERVIEW: Liam Kelly.

Liam Kelly discusses his new reflection book, The Glorious Journey, based on the Oscar and BAFTA-nominated film, The Two Popes, starring Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryce …

2020 bought us two Pope related films, The New Pope and The Two Popes – why choose the latter as a focus for The Glorious Journey?

I think The Two Popes is a more attractive film to explore. For film critics the drama series The New Pope had the obvious star-attraction of Jude Law and John Malkovich, and what one critic termed its “exploration of power dynamics and sumptuous strangeness”. I like the simplicity of The Two Popes and its exploration of humanity – you become a participant in the dialogue, not a spectator of strangeness!

In the media there seems to be a tendency to portray Pope Francis as ‘the liberal Pope’ and Pope Benedict as a conservative hard-liner – as a former correspondent at Vatican Radio yourself, how accurate or otherwise are these portrayals?

In The Two Popes Pope Benedict says to Cardinal Bergoglio: “There’s a saying – the Lord corrects one Pope by giving us the next. I’d like to see my correction”.  So is Pope Francis a correction of Pope Benedict?

It is all too easy to accept media stereotypes. Criticism or support of popes is nothing new. The labels of ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ have been around for many years, although I’m not sure how helpful they are. Returning from a visit to Sweden in 2016 the ‘liberal’ Pope Francis said that “Saint John Paul II had the last clear word [on the ordination of women] and it stands”. As some newspapers reported, the Pope’s words would disappoint advocates of change.

To confound all the labels I remember a picture montage of the last three popes, which read:

Pope John Paul II: ‘This is what we believe’.

Pope Benedict XVI: ‘This is why we believe it’.

Pope Francis: ‘Now go do it’.

You have chosen to call the book, a ‘reflection book’. How best, then, should readers approach reading it?

With care! By that I mean take time to read it, think about the words, the scenes in the film, the questions posed throughout the book. The Glorious Journey is not to be read like a ‘page-turner-whodunnit’! I’d like to think it might be something of a retreat experience, providing the opportunity, the time and space to think about some profound issues.

What would you say are the key tenets for people to be aware of in their faith journey?

Faith must be an encounter with a living person. There is a distinction between ‘the faith which I believe’ and ‘the faith by which I believe’. The former may be the set of teachings of a particular church or denomination; the latter is the relationship with a living person which is the foundation of that belief. These two elements are united, and at times on the journey of faith the relationship with Jesus Christ may not be clear, there are always twists and turns along the route – but we will never be left alone.

Of the many things that the coronavirus pandemic has highlighted, loneliness has been one of the most evident as people were forcibly isolated from each other. What does The Two Popes teach us we need to take into consideration when either experiencing loneliness ourselves or being aware of the loneliness of others? 

It is perhaps flippant to suggest what might be the greatest challenges from the coronavirus pandemic, there may still be more to come. But already the importance of community is obvious. I’m sure we have witnessed many good deeds: shopping for others, checking that those shielding are alright, and, in a more overtly religious setting, visiting the sick has been replaced by telephoning the sick, the elderly and the lonely. As it says in The Glorious Journey: “We are social animals living in community. The apostles experienced familiarity with the Lord in the concreteness of daily life and then spread the good news throughout their communities.  We, too, are called to be ambassadors of the good news, and in the challenging circumstances of today ensure that loneliness does not dwell in our communities.” 

One of the chapters in the book is devoted to Love. Pope Francis had to chose between the woman he wanted to marry and his desire to become a priest. Can you see a time when the Catholic Church will see marriage and the need for a priest to give necessary time and energy to their vocation and to Jesus as compatible?

I was struck by something Pope Francis wrote in his document following the Amazonian Synod which was published in February 2020. Again, there was a degree of media expectation that the Pope would allow a proposal to allow the ordination of married men in remote areas underserved by priests. Instead, the Pope wrote: “it is not simply a question of facilitating a greater presence of ordained ministers who can celebrate the Eucharist. That would be a very narrow aim, were we not also to strive to awaken new life in communities. We need to promote an encounter with God’s word and growth in holiness through various kinds of lay service that call for a process of education – biblical, doctrinal, spiritual and practical – and a variety of programmes of ongoing formation”.

In terms of the human journey what do you think The Two Popes as a film encapsulates best in the relationship between Pope Francis and Pope Benedict?

In June 2016 Pope Francis told journalists: “I have said that it is a grace to have a wise “grandfather” [Pope Benedict XVI] at home. I say it in front of him and he laughs. For he is the Pope emeritus, the one who watches my back with his prayers. He is very intelligent and for me he is the wise grandfather in the house.” The Two Popes is watching that relationship play out and develop on the screen in front of you.

 

The Glorious Journey: A reflection book based on The Two Popes is available now in paperback from dltbooks.com and all good bookstores.